Did Paul condone discrimination against women? (Q.3/3)



Tina. And that leads us to our last question today and it comes from Elle who asks: “are we to believe God says through Paul that women should not have authority over men in church as well as in society in general? Is every utterance fall directly from God? If so we can safely say that this thinking has caused much violence against women throughout time and egregious human rights violations across the world. Even President Jimmy Carter drew a parallel between bad male behavior toward women and this interpretation that is sexist as if it was God’s desire. It’s too bad that churches don’t promote an interpretation that would protect women and realize the old passages are so far outdated that it drives good people away from church and in believing it all. Let’s face it Paul was not the brightest bulb he (Saul) needed a major intervention himself – a sexist if ever there was one.” So it sounds like there’s two questions at the beginning followed kind of by Elle’s line of thinking so how would you answer this?

Priscilla: Well thank you so much Elle I think this is a very relevant topic and an important one because we want to know what our role is in church and I also believe that God does not want his word to be used as a weapon of oppression ever God wants us to be encouraged by his word he wants to be saved by what we learn about him and about his saving grace so I apologize if that a behavior was ever given to you by another person I know that’s not what God intended I’m sorry if that ever happened to you I know that when we we serve a dog love and of truth and he wants to encourage us in the ways that we learn about him and how we learn how to go into his church and witness people on a personal note this was also very very important question for me I’m a pretty driven young woman and through dog bleeding and his grace I have found much success with work and with ministry and not just the ministry of Nursing but with ministry and church and in my life I was very curious as to Paul’s words when it comes to women in ministry and if anything I have like looking at okay what is the expectation looking at my options my opportunities like what are there I found Paul to actually be very encouraging when you dive deep into what he’s talking about so uh you don’t have to agree with me and that’s okay but I know that what I have found in the Bible is that God truly values the voice of women throughout the Bible and in ministry itself and so does Paul now Paul II he gets called a lot of things bigoted sexist false prophets obnoxious we’re like he brother Paul he just he uses such strong language people respond usually very strongly when strong language is given so I’m not surprised but that doesn’t mean we ignore what he says if anything that should mean that we dive deeper to truly understand what he’s saying and unfortunately a lot of people when they use his words in a manner to oppress other people it’s usually taken out of context so we want to make sure that we understand context as we move forward so what we’re gonna do is we’re going to look at different aspects of the verses that were reading now 2nd Timothy 3:16 tells us all Scripture is given by inspiration of God as profitable for doctrine and for reproof thank me that doesn’t mean what that does it mean let me put it that way is that this is stories where a little bit of truth isn’t that that can be farther from the truth if anything all of this is true all of this holds what God wants us to learn about his character how people are human behavior gods reaction to human behavior and his promises for us at his plan for us all of Scripture is for our learning for our inspiration help us to understand what is true what is not true so when we read the Bible we’re going to read it as it is and then we’re going to look into the context and the reason we do that is because we want to see what was the underlying meaning behind this what was the rationale to him saying this we can usually find a far deeper powerful meaning when we look into the context of what we’re reading and when we do that the third day we’re going to go over is how capable we understand the context we can understand their root meanings where God’s focus was and allowing that to be put and how we can apply that for us today so we’re going to look at our dreams we’re gonna look at the context and we’re gonna look at how I can apply that for myself okay all right so we’re gonna die against you want to be we’re gonna die again the two processes of fall the first one is actually in first Timothy first Timothy chapter 2 there’s Timothy chapter 2 verses 8 through 15 okay number with me these patches these passages they’re not sure so we’re gonna try to be conscious of time but we’re gonna go ahead and read it because we want to answer your questions as efficiently as we can so chapter 2 now some background before we begin in the early church there was a lot of structure that you need to take place a lot of people were still trying to understand who Jesus was what that meant to them what that meant with Roman authorities still in place what that meant with the Sanhedrin persecuting them and we had people like Peter James John and Paul trying to help create order or there was so much chaos and this is one of the letters to the early church to help create order where there is going to be evidently a lot of chaos so bear with me so we’re gonna go ahead and read the whole thing and then break it apart so starting actually in verse 8 all the way to 15 so it says here from Paul I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting and like manner also that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel with propriety and moderation and not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing but which is proper for women professing godliness with good works let a woman learn in silence with all subjection or Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceived but the woman being deceived fell into transgression nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing as they continue in faith love and holiness with self-control so there is a lot we’re gonna break it apart so verse 8 I like how he actually starts with men and you can actually get a picture of what’s kind of going on with the church why he is addressing them and going soon even in the first place it says here I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting now Paul’s not want to waste words for him to say without wrath and doubting it makes me wonder if there was rapid doubting going on like what was happening in that church were they fighting were they arguing were they having doubts of who Jesus was and notice he says pray everywhere what is prayer prayer is connection with God so he’s like you guys need to connect with God again everywhere not just at church not just at home like literally you guys need to pray everywhere to address the wrath and the doubt change so it’s very interesting now he first starts off with men like hey there’s something going on here it’s not helping your church you need to pray and connect with God again so you guys can address this and then he says in like manner and he talks to the women so in that same know in that same preface of Kate we need to help the church there’s a lot going on here you guys need to get back to connection with God he taught starts talking to women and one of the first things he brings up is dress modesty verses 9 through 10 talks about dressing with more modesty and propriety or discretion if you will so let’s talk about context culturally if someone at that time had braided hair or short hair it was actually considered a sign of promiscuity or prostitution which I’m sure the women were not trying to promote when they’re going to church not only that there was actually a spiritual element involved pagan temples during that time had provinces in those temples or servants females who would actually do prostitute like acts to create an experience they would use sex as an a spiritual experience in pagan temples so in order to get away from that imagery Paul is saying hey maybe stay away from braided hair from not dressing modestly because we’re going to give the wrong impression not only of you ladies but of who God is that’s not the experience God is trying to promote he’s trying to tell something to you for something saving something transformative he’s not trying to promote sexual immorality Bob that’s not more shocking and so when we understand that we see ok ho is actually trying to help the women to stay away from being addressed in a manner that they might not want to be addressed not only that he’s protecting God’s image and he’s protecting the church for being confused as something that it’s not which is very important when you think of the Sanhedrin who’s watching them and the Roman Empire and a lot of other what we would consider other countries at that time who are watching them they’re setting already a precedent that they’re very different from anything the world has ever seen No how can I apply that to myself so the applicable aspect well I can look at myself and see like a my dressing modestly am i dressing in a manner that I looked like I have a transformed relationship of Christ and it’s not not to be fake but to be real like I have a relationship of God I’m looking at his purity his loveliness his goodness I want to reflect that as much as I can by his grace and his power like let me do all I can to reflect the dog that I loved not only that I want to give the right representation of the church that I go to this is a church that promotes purity that promotes goodness non-judgmentally but promotes in a loving way and promotes the God so a few items there that we can consider for ourselves as we’re looking at this in an applicable kind of way we can look at and I know that but it’s about looking at how is God leading me in this how am i promoting him in this how am i showing the identity that he gave me as I dressed so things to consider on a personal note there but let’s continue so verses 11 through 15 I think that’s honestly worth the living for a lot of the controversy if I can call it that stems from is the 11 to 15 verses because he uses the word submission women submit to the men now we’re going to look a little bit later on him using submission men so what does he really mean by submission he’s meaning respects he’s meaning listening he’s meaning yielding even at times to someone who we want to be leaders for us if that makes sense and creating a form of harmony and he mentions Genesis so why would he mention Adam in well we’re going to segue very quickly and go into Adam and Eve so Adam in each story is found genesis 133 and we see that God create Adam and then he creates Eve but what before he creates Eve he looks at me says it’s not good that man should be alone I meant create for him I help now the word the root word for help me actually translates to health protection or age so there’s actually kind of even like a guard military language there and it shows that not only those man protect woman but woman was created to be a part of protecting man there’s this partnership just unity in protecting each other and helping each other forward now as I thought about it was like why would he mention Eve and Adam well how did Eve not protect Adam remember the story she felt she was tempted by singing she chose to sin she influenced Adam he then chose to sin and in that sense she was not protecting him from sin in fact she was influencing him towards sin and not towards God and so as I looked at that I was like okay why would Paul allude to Genesis 1 through 3 and to Eve and what was going on there and the more I thought about him like were these women teaching something that was encouraging more sinfulness rather than godliness like what were they teaching where they were not protecting those around them and if you look at the whole context of Paul’s talking to them like the whole theme that he’s going on these like there is not enough prayer there is wrath there is doubting and women and submit like you guys what you’re saying probably isn’t what excuse me what reflects a god I have to coughing so sorry so that’s also something to consider and on a personal note like we need to consider when we’re teaching are we really teaching according to what the Bible says or are we teaching more on what we feel it should say or what we think the culture thinks it should say or are we really allowing God to teach us what to bring to the table what to say and how he will just to see it and leave it at that like each should have walked away from the Apple are we really walking away from temptation we’re speaking and when we’re teaching so something to bear in mind also respecting structure that God has in place and we’re going to talk about that in a little bit but there’s a lot to unpack here but one of the biggest ones of course would be that influential now when we look at this we need to remember that God has a plan for us I got it has amazing amazing plans for women even in this section of Scripture notice that Paul ends with talking about Eve and childbirth now that procreational aspect reflects God’s creative aspect so God still had much significance for women and pull ends on that he’s like look I like we need to address this but you guys are very significant I don’t want you to think that you are not important to the church God does they are never wants women to feel like they are not important to the church structure or important to anything regarding that spiritual walk and when we look at Paul he’s involved with a lot of women who are involved in church structure we have Phoebe who is a Deaconess that’s leadership we have Lydia who was a businesswoman she hosted churches at her home that’s leadership we have Priscilla who with Aquila gave final study still follows who became one of the leading leaders one of the leading leaders of the church and that’s incredibly significant and that’s throughout the entire Bible too we see God he had Miriam be part of the spiritual leadership of Israel and she was part of music ministry we had Deborah who was a prophetess and an amazing one her story is incredible you should check it out also we had Esther who advocated for her people we had roots who showed us what ministry in the home looks like we see all these different forms of ministry God has a significant place for you he never wants you to forget that and neither does Paul and if you don’t believe me who are gonna go into Ephesians and check it out because God does lift up women and so it is Paul so we’re going to go to Ephesians 5 there muscle one second my friends okay so Ephesians 5 and we’re gonna start in verses 22 now out verses 24 21 Paul is actually talking to men submitting to one another he says giving thanks always for all things to God mitii to one another in the fear of God so don’t think that women are the only ones singled out when it comes to that word submission it really is about respecting expecting he’s in charge inspecting structure respecting leadership and then he goes into marriage Christ and the church now before we go into this a lot of people say well Ephesians is about marriage it’s not about church structure but if you look in Genesis the first marriage was a church like Adam and Eve had Communion and fellowship with Jesus that was a church setting same thing the house the home is supposed to be an example of what the church is as there is harmony in the home should there be harmony in the church so let’s go ahead and delete it starting in verse 22 going all the way to 33 wide submit to your own husband’s as to the Lord for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ as head of the church and he is the savior of the body therefore just as the church is subject to Christ so let the wives be to their own husband’s in everything husbands love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for her that he might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word and he might present her to himself a glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing but that she should be holy and without blemish so husband’s ought to love their own wives as their own bodies who loved wife loves himself for no one ever hated his own flesh but nourishes and cherishes it this is the Lord after church where we are members of his body of expression of his bones of his butt for this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and we joins his wife and the two shall become one flesh this is the great mystery concerning Christ and the church nevertheless one of you in particular so love his old wife as himself and let the wife see that she respects her husband now we see that word respect and we see allusion to Genesis when we look at this if anything we see the relationship that church and the home should be women respecting their husbands husbands submitting to God and God leading everything and as let me see it going the other way as God protects the church and gave his life for the church the husband should protect his wife and give his life for his wife if anything in these verses there’s a lot more pressure on the men then there is on the woman like God is saying you know just as I would do everything to help the church and uplift the church so men should respect their wives lift up their wives and do everything they can for their lives it’s a very beautiful like creation of harmony that unfortunately we don’t always see we don’t always see that in families we have broken families and we don’t always see that in church we have broken churches but notice there are significant roles for all of us god holds us in such high esteem and so does paul pub wouldnt go on and on about how marriage can be amazing and how the church can be amazing if he didn’t respect her parties he wouldn’t even mention women if you didn’t think that they had a role to play and remembered suit Paul’s the one that created the love chapter love is patient love is fine Paul is all about the love Paul is all about creating that harmony creating that beautifulness and allowing it to be part of all of our lives now I know that we covered a whole lot of but I do want to say I do want to say this that Christ is about lifting you up and as we move forward some points that are applicable you have a place in ministry you have most definite place in ministry remember God is not opposed to you teaching God is opposed to people disrespecting each other God is opposed to elements where we don’t respect the structure that he put in place nor when we create chaos whether should be for me like as women like fulfilling our role as women we should be supporting eating and protecting truth and the church not only that getting involved we please don’t ever feel like in ministry there’s no place for you there’s so many places there’s Bible working medical missionary would missionary I mean I’ve been those things I’ve been a logistics director of vandalism director and outreach director I’ve been an associate director there’s so much you can do in ministry that I hope you don’t feel that you can’t explore let me work that differently I hope you feel that you are able and encouraged to explore the different parts of ministry as dawn has led and as God has pointed in his word there are so many places for you and you are incredibly significant God has such an incredible role for men and for women and he wants us to work together in harmony creating a beautiful union that reflects Christ just like a marriage should not only that what if another thing that I believe is really applicable if you have if you find in Scripture something that might confuse you or maybe ruffle those tail feathers a little bit search it out dig deeper you’ll find that there is context there that actually reflects something beautiful that was like something where we can grow from I hope that you are encouraged to look deeper into it I hope that if you encounter another piece of scripture that maybe you don’t agree with but you look deeper into it even Peter in in his book he actually said that we women aren’t prob’ly influential we know influence those already only influence those that are coming after us all the young women that are looking at it so your role never forget it be encouraged that you’re incredibly valued by God try to be valued by pause and we just need to continue to lift up truth and lift up each other I hope that helps I hope you feel encouraged to look at pull with a little bit more grace if I can put it that way but thank you so much for your question amen thank you so much Priscilla and I really appreciate your answer and just looking at the context of what you know Paul was saying and I think that that’s just so important that we definitely always put this the scripture it should be line upon line precept upon precept right and you know someone once said a text without any context is nothing but a pretext and it’s so important that we look at the whole chapter and when I look at this chapter in 1st Timothy 2 that was being you know it’s addressed I definitely see how you know it says that the women were to learn in silence with all subjection they were it was a time of learning these women were they’re not dressing modestly and the men are angry you’re just not under state where they need to be teaching any be learning and I I definitely see the beauty in that you know and also like you’re saying look at everything Paul said and if you look at Galatians 3:28 he’s the one that says no in Christ we’re neither Jew nor Greek or neither male nor female we’re all one in Christ amen you know Paul’s all just you know we’re equal and what an important back that you know Paul just you know tries to bring up that you know we all have a different role and it’s valuable and he’s saying you know just like Eve you have a humongous influence that could affect the rest of the world so he writes for God and right well he definitely wasn’t trying to oppress me but rather show us our significance I just thank you again so much personal I really appreciate your answers today and for all of you listening we’re just so grateful that you tuned in and we just look forward to our next show where we’ll be able to answer more questions so keep them coming all right you thank you and God bless

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